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Lee Stohr |
#21 | |||
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Will you be able to buy a used Duratec S2 from the UK and run it with the English engine over here ?
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Tony Sleath |
Used S2s from the UK | #22 | ||
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No. They are similar but different engines. Although the casting architecture is the same for the block and the head they will have different part numbers. The
MZR will have Mazda part numbers whereas the Ford engine has Ford part numbers. The pistons, crank, connecting rods, etc will also be different from the UK
engine. The MZR also has the more modern VVT so the ECU will need to be different as well.
Since Mazda is willing to work with us on a contingency program we want to stick with one engine so it makes the contingency opportunity easier. If someone wants to buy a used car from the UK they will have to buy a roller. |
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Lee Stohr |
#23 | |||
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Well, I hope you can save the class with just a 25hp increase on the current cars.
I would humbly suggest you talk to some engineers, like Eric Purcell, regarding the competitiveness of a sports racer designed for 200hp and wings when you strip the wing off and take away 30hp. I'm not sure it would make any sense to buy a new UK car for this rule package. |
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Bruce Allison 87 |
#24 | |||
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Eric would be the perfect guy to ask about that, because when you take the wing and 50hp off, you have the VanDiemen S2000 he's been importing
& selling for years.
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Charles Warner |
#25 | |||
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With all due respect to the efforts expended, unless there is crossover between the UK version and the US versions, at least in ancilliaries, you are
re-inventing the wheel. What is the goal of the exercise? To increase the number of S2s active in Club racing, or to establish a new format
for S2, regardless of the effect on overall numbers?
Charlie Warner
fatto gatto racing |
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Jim Colombotos |
maybe | #26 | ||
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Lee,
Tony is more up to speed on the 09 mzr motor specs than I...... but if one builds an 09 mzr using the same bolt on items........ all one would need to do a pond crossover..... delete the VVT function, install uk cams and reflash the ecu. or get a uk head and cam and reflash the ecu. or If the 09 MZR is totally different for $3500 just put a new motor in! Also regarding pricing I put up a few months back, remember the zetec for the FC guys cost 15K. Yes most of the items I was getting cost on were coming from the UK but pricing was strangely in-line with US pricing. And Matt Lolas are sexy! And Lee the Duratec is sexy! JC
Last Edited By: Jim Colombotos 09/17/08 22:23:23.
Edited 2 times.
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Tigaman |
#27 | |||
Lee Stohr wrote: Lee, you just don't get it, do you? The draw of Sports 2000 is the draw of Formula Ford. A DRIVER'S formula, one that has for thirty years been the antithesis of what you've done to DSR (and I say that with the greatest respect and admiration for you and your creations). It is not and has not been a "flavor" or "mod of the month" class, but instead a remarkable showcase of driver talent and no substantial chassis advantage, even though there are many. Coming from twenty years of backbreaking effort in Production cars, S2 is a revelation! The rules are so well written and so stable that a marvelous balance of acceleration, brakes, cornering, enough aero to play with but not get screwed up with, reliability, cost AND competitiveness exists in the class, which makes it a no-brainer fir a LOT of people, hundreds still. The problem is not the car, the problem is the venue. If you alter the car substantially (and 25 bhp with no other changes does, just ask the Quad 4 and YAC folks), then a lot of the attractiveness of that perfect balance is lost. I am for the inclusion of MZR powered cars in old and modern chassis, just don't screw with my single-stick. Unfortunately, there are a lot of forces and egos at work here. It started out how do we raise participation and it's turned into how do we make it sexy? Well, I get juiced by heading down into T1 with six or eight folks taking up nearly the same real estate, and for thirty years AND for the foreseeable future (especially with the addition of MZR cars), it will continue to do so!
-Peter
www.peterkrause.net "The driver is the single greatest performance variable in the racing equation." |
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mbrandt1402 |
#28 | |||
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Peter, I think you are correct when you say that S2 will need all the participation effort expended this year and more. You also believe that an uprated Pinto is not necessary, but I think those two beliefs are at odds with each other. I've exchanged info with several national S2 guys here in the northwest that are gone if their cars cannot be uprated to remain competitive. It is a logical assumption that they will write very convincing letters to the SCCA CRB and BoD against any rules change that makes their cars non-competitive. If I were in their shoes, I would probably do just that, especially if the option is as affordable as a new carb and camshaft. These guys run SCCA and ICSCC only, and ICSCC basically rubber-stamps SCCA rules changes. I also believe that the uprated Pinto spec will naturally fall away in a few years. As cars reach the point where they need a major Pinto rebuild, the
Duratec conversion will look more and more attractive especially if the final MZR spec remains true to Matt and Tony's vision. I think we can presume that
the natural tendency for new chassis to slowly displace older ones at the national level will come back to S2. The older chassis will trickle down to regional
and vintage use, and with the near-certainty that current spec Pinto S2 regional classes will spring up, there will be natural forces that will put those carbs
and cams on the shelf in 4 or 5 years.
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mbrandt1402 |
Sexy sells! | #29 | ||
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If the only criteria is close, affordable competition SM or SRF gets the nod every time.
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Tigaman |
#30 | |||
mbrandt1402 wrote: With regard to the former, then why introduce the "bridge" if it will all be chucked anyway... With regard to the latter, I'd query the sample base more widely before coming to potentially ruinous conclusions... No one I've spoken to will chuck their cars or this class if the "bridge" is NOT a component of the proposal, but a bunch won't come to SCCA anymore if it is... Current, National SCCA competitors...
-Peter
www.peterkrause.net "The driver is the single greatest performance variable in the racing equation." |
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Matthew DiRenzo |
#31 | |||
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Charles:
The most important factor is that the MZR bolts in to the UK chassis. Minor differences in ancillary components are worth the inconvenience on the used market (the only thing this affects), if that guarantees stateside support from a manufacturer and new engines costing something like $10,000 less than what has been offered from the UK. If that means we sell rollers back and forth, what's the problem? There isn't one; that's how it's always been. This is hardly "reinventing the wheel" -- more like a practical trade off. The benefits outweigh the drawbacks. That we have people volunteering to make this happen on the testing & development side makes the decision a no-brainer, despite the extra work involved. I've been told that an anonymous enthusiast is underwriting the entire program. When I tell you there isn't going to be a "better" deal, well... that's the truth. NOTE: Well before the proposal hits FastTrack, the CRB will likely publish a member advisory that simply puts our ideas out there for comment by the wider public. We'd like for you all to write in at that time, regardless of your stance. Preliminary support needs to be in place before certain aspects of this program can move forward. Like I said before, this isn't getting done for free and some parties (e.g. Mazda) want at least a mildly fuzzy feeling before pulling the trigger on their end. We need to know, one way or the other. |
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mbrandt1402 |
#32 | |||
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The bridge is necessary to give everyone a way to stay in S2 nationals. Take it away and Current, National SCCA Competitors (to borrow Peter's
emphasis) will leave SCCA nationals in the NW. Another competitor is gearing up to go national S2 racing in a late model chassis. He won't bother if a
Pinto can't compete for national wins.
Those competitors are necessary for S2 to survive, just like the crossover guys are necessary. I'm seriously baffled by the opinion that the crossover guys will race a current spec Pinto against a Duratec, but won't race against a Duratec and uprated Pintos. Why not? I'm looking for a logical explanation here. They can still cross back and forth without updating. If they qualify (who doesn't these days?), they can update the carb and cam and surprise some people at the Runoffs. The Matt and Tony proposal is more inclusive, and in my mind that gives it a better shot at success. |
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Lee Stohr |
#33 | |||
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Peter, why is the problem the venue? I don't know what you mean.
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Bruce Allison 87 |
#34 | |||
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Mark said> "I'm seriously baffled by the opinion that the crossover guys will race a current spec Pinto against a Duratec, but won't race
against a Duratec and uprated Pintos. Why not? I'm looking for a logical explanation here."
Exactly. BA |
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carl correll |
prices | #35 | ||
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The cost of the MZR from Mazda must be for the basic street engine. A dry sump system is required for S2 use and a racing throttle body setup with air horns
and airbox is required for that all-important "sexiness factor". At that point you will be back in the 13K range for an assembled and dyno tested
engine that has been detuned to the target number.
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Earthbound Flying Machines |
#36 | |||
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First off, huge thanks to the tireless efforts of Matt and Tony (and others) for moving this ahead in some form of reasonable fashion - I've been a bit out
of the loop with my insane schedule this year (17 of the last 19 weekends were at tracks all across North America).
The big deal here is the support from Mazda - with that, we have some leverage. I don't have an exact number (as nobody does right now), but I'm certain the engine will cost much less than what Carl is predicting. The fact that this bolts directly into any of the Duratech spec cars from the UK is a great thing - and pretty much mandatory to open the market to new cars. 175 h.p. is about what the original YAC came in at, and that is an engine that is substantially heavier than the MZR - and the performance was GREAT. Those who feel that the current Pinto cars have a great balance of power and handling have not truly experienced how much more fun "just" another 25 horspower or so is. As for the gearboxes, I defer to the UK cars, who run 200 hp, do standing starts, and have NO gearbox problems. Even with MK9 gears. We just don't have enough tire (read grip) to make the drivetrain work much harder. If the cars were to go to 8's and 10's, we'd open up a big can of worms in terms of driveline reliability. I like that we are keeping the 6's and 8's... That being said, all the new cars being produced in Duratech form already use a rear wing - not a terribly effective one, but that's the point. The UK spec wing is no more effective aerodynamically than a really well designed tail and spoiler - it's just easier to get right. Certainly, a good aero guy will capitalize on rear deck/wing interaction, but as I experimented with greatly (and spent tens of thousands of dollars on), this interaction only yields minimal benefits compared to other development items (geometry tuning for new spec tires, shock developement, etc.). The wing truly helps differentiate the "new" S2 from the old - and as stated above, when a guy gets passed by a car with a wing, he knows the car has the Duratech in it and he's not really competing with that car. I know on the Van Diemen, that the original "low" tail was not as effective with or without the rear wing. Even in the UK, the newer spec bodywork features a higher rear deck and a spoiler that interacts somewhat with the wing. A wing will NOT completely outdate all the bodywork out there - just gives everyone one more place to tune on the car.. I have spoken with several of the vintage and club guys about why they don't want the pinto upgrades - these guys largely focus on either regional or vintage racing, and really only dabble in Nationals to support the class numbers. Most of these drivers would continue to dabble in Nationals only if they didn't have to change their cars to keep running all three venues. They already know they are not chasing guys like Fergus and Mercer for overall wins - but they wouldn't mind racing for their own "Pinto Class" victories if the big dogs all switch to the MZR. In regional competition, I think it would be likely that two actual classes of S2 will crop up - sort of like the days when "SS2" was around on the west coast for the pre-DB2 chassis. In Nationals, everyone would have to run together - as we do now with the other "wings and things" cars. Oh, and Carl is dead on about the uprated pinto ending up being a "package" deal that will need to be tuned on to maximize - change the cam, and there may be a reason to make the minor changes to the combustion chamber you're allowed, different valve grinds might work - who knows - but someone will spend the money to sort it out, and make all the other engines obsolete (again)... My discussions with SCCA directors (and Jim Julow) lead me to believe that if we put together a decent proposal for a "new S2" class, one that has cost controls built into it, and that fits well between SRF and CSR/DSR, they will guarantee us five years to get the numbers up. It's during these initial years that we need to "sell" the class - that includes manufacturers (such as myself) and competitors all gearing up to let the racing world know how cool the new class is, and how cost effective and fun the racing can be. Not an easy task... Everyone is freaked out about not making the numbers - but if the class doesn't evolve and bring in new cars and drivers, we won't make the numbers anyway. Look at the herculean effort put out this year (several guys showing up to National races just to start the race and park it!), and we still ended up 24th and barely above 2.5! The status quo won't get it done - new cars and new blood have to come in - up from the SRF ranks and down from the D/CSR ranks - but those guys need a reason to do so - and a better, more cost effective S2 is a good start... Keep on task here - we're closer than we've ever been to getting this right! And think about the wing - I'll be glad to provide input or data as needed, as I have run these cars both here (ACRL days) and in the UK with the rear wing fitted, as well as two decades worth of time running without the rear wing... EP
Last Edited By: Earthbound Flying Machines 09/19/08 09:14:35.
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Charles Warner |
#37 | |||
carl correll wrote:The 5 speed is a red herring. 90% of the tracks do not call for 5 speeds and 95% of the drivers will opt not to try the more-difficult downshift into first. It just makes guys feel racier having a five speed box. The only reason to go to a five speed is if you go Mark 5 for the reliability. I still never use first gear except in the pits. (except at Mt Tremblant.) The sequential is another story and first is as easily engaged as any other gear. The only issue can be that the brakes can be good enough to slow the car quicker than you can go down through the gears.
Charlie Warner
fatto gatto racing |
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Charles Warner |
#38 | |||
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Might there be an option that would allow the current Pinto cars to run as they are and allow for the introduction of the Mazda/Duratec powered cars as well?
Are we stuck focused on the integration of the newer lumps into the extant class? Or, are we focusing on keeping as many racers in the fold while openning up
new boundaries for new cars?
An alternate proposal could be involve a restructuring of the sports racer group to take care of existing disparities between CSR & DSR, include the new generation cars, keep the S2s as is, and provide a way to keep all sports racer categories racing. And, it could encompass anyone wantuing to up the power of the Pinto. Watch this space . . . .
Charlie Warner
fatto gatto racing |
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carl correll |
the luddite view | #39 | ||
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The MZR proposal is a great idea. Mazda support would be a huge boost. The final cost of the engine package is not really an issue.
You need the wing. The cars don't really need it, but you do to add jazz to the class. Leave the Pinto alone. That is a box you should not open. Don't let Charlie frighten you away from the joy of having five ratios to use in your H-pattern gearbox. His is the old fogie view. |
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Bruce Allison 87 |
#40 | |||
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No one said you "have to" have a 5 speed if you don't want one or if it's ineffective.
The "red herring" is a moot point! BA |
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